The search for RELLevance

Get post A.R. I don't want people to misconscrew the criticism of this event as "hating."

Cause honestly it's not that I think that in a stage that big, in front of millions and millions of people certain decorum and certain standards must be met.

Pardon me if this sounds elitest but (while it was great that they were excited) Three Six's acceptance speech didn't meet those standards.

Also, I think most of the people were laughing AT them, not with them. Stewart handled it well I think... as best he could.

good post, not get*

AR -
There's little left to say. Your post was thorough. But I'll make myself the sacrificial lamb here and put something out there. Just because I think a song is hot does not mean the artist is above being "hated on" - which for me, is holding them accountable for their contributions to American culture. Any of my bros will tell you that I'm in luv wit T. Pain's "I'm in Luv Wit a Stripper." However, I can not deny that the song's message is damaging. As a whole, Three Six Mafia often presents the mainstream with unflattering images of our culture. And those images will be solidified in the gold similar to that featured on their Oscar when those images reach the masses as the world spends today googling the group.

Good post and I agree...

however rell, as far as decorum and standards go, nobody cringed when the French guys got up and spoke holding the stuffed penguins or cringed when the wallace and gromit men got up there with their clown like bow ties and when they put them on their oscar statues or when Ben Stiller came on with the green suit or when the King Kong sound mixers beat their chest like they were King Kong or when the writer from Broke Back Mountain come on stage with jeans or when chicken little ripped off his pants...

i was watching the oscars at a viewing party last nite with a bunch of tight black film students, when Three Six won, somebody was like somebody could have told them to put on a suit and somebody else was like I'm sure they could speak English and I was kind of upset.

1) the brothas had just finished performing, so no they were not going to sing its hard out here for a pimp in a tux...not happening
2) The French guys accent was so thick I wanted a translation and the Asian actress' English was so stiff I would have preferred if she spoke in her native tounge and had a translation for me.

I feel that the Oscars were definately bitter-sweet (I am a Three Six fan)but I also question why as black people do we have to hold ourselves do superhuman standards all of the time. There was a range of blackness on the stage last nite. The refined Terrence Howard, the critically acclaimed Jamie Fox and Queen Latifah, Chris Bridges, and the overly estatic (with a right to be) Three Six Mafia.

well twilla that's because the french guy is well, frankly from France where french is the official language.

I know this sounds elitest but I couldn't tell what them dudes were saying (albeit in their excitement)and they're from America where English is the official language.

Again not hating, just asking for a lil' more...

ELEVEN QUESTIONS

1) Was yesterday a good day for hip-hop or was it a bad day?
2) Are the forefathers of the movement clapping because we’ve gotten another stamp of approval from the mainstream or are they spending the day avoiding phone calls and blocking emails?
3) Should hip-hop even seek mainstream approval?
4) Was Taraji Henson trying to sing for real or was that her character “Shug” singing?
5) Either way, was that last note excusable?
6) Based on the presence of Ludacris, Queen Latifah, Will Smith and Jamie Foxx at the podium, will Taraji improve her chances of reappearing on the Oscar stage if she just comes out with an album?
7) With his first Grammy being for backing up Usher on “Yeah” and his first Oscar being for backing up Terrence Howard and Lorenz Tate in “Crash,” will Ludacris ever be recognized by the old guard for his solo contributions?
8) As hot as they may be, with songs like “Move Bitch,” “Area Codes,” and “Pimpin’ All Over the World,” do we want him to be recognized?
9) Is Ludacris’ recognition of African women as “the best” in “Pimpin’ All Over the World” supposed to make the song a semi-conscious, semi-love song?
10) Has Bill Cosby said anything about last night’s win yet?
11) Is it REALLY hard out there for a pimp or is it hard out there for brothers trying to do the right thing when pimps are glorified and their supporters when Oscars?

Thanks for this! I won't hate on Three 6 Mafia either, but I just don't care for that song as it degrading towards the women/prostitutes of hip-hop culture. Yes, the women are having sex or preforming sex acts while the pimp gets the money. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Great post. I completely agree that people were laughing AT 3 6 mafia and not with them. It was uncomfortable. I hate to use the words like cooning, but it comes very close.

Why are you assuming that everything that Three 6 Mafia did was seen by everybody as representative of all black people? If Three 6 Mafia comes off as thuggish or crass, are we supposed to assume that Morgan Freeman or Terrence Howard are similar? I'm afraid you're being a little too self-conscious with this. Don't forget that Eminem, for all his crassness, won this same category in 2002.

Just because some of these white people who accepted their awards came off as idiotic doofuses, doesn't mean I'm going to fret over how they're representing me. Racist people are always going to find a way to make one person represent another, simply based on the color of their skin. Why should I worry about what the dumb racists think?

I thought Three 6 Mafia winning was incredible. The song was truly a perfect fit for "Best Original Song", because the song itself was so instrumental in the film. It also was a great song, and they deserved all the credit for their win.

Three 6 Mafia's win was truly inspiring. They were the most real in their excitement about winning. Contrast that with several people who accepted their awards like they were anxious students doing math problems at the blackboard.

Don't see this as a victory for black people, or even hip-hop. See it for what it is: a victory for Three 6 Mafia, and Hustle & Flow. If you like the group, and you like the movie, then you should appreciate this win, and not try to take anything away from it.

all i can say is blk ppl why must we be so serious all the damn time, and would we be having this dicussion if it was the vibe or bet awards...i think not....there is no reason they should have to out on airs (sp...but you know what i mean) for the white folks...basically you're saying smile real good and speak real well for massah now...they just got done performing and why would they dress any different for that song...but that's just my take...

I always thought Public Enemy should have won for Fight the Power. The history of the Academy stayed true to form by giving the nod to Three 6 Mafia. But I have to admit, in the context of the movie, the song worked perfectly. It didn't go over as well last night. So, if I look at it from that standpoint, then I guess it deserved to win because the other two songs were good, but not as integrated into their perspective movies.

Yall can call it smiling for massuh or whatever you want to call it, but unfortunately people ARE going to look all black people based upon their viewing of the Three Six Mafia last night.

Also, "random white guy" of course you don't have to worry about the people at the oscars representing you, cause (for lack of a better term) you're white.

Blackness is usually defined (by the mainstream) as what they see on television, in magazines and hear on the radio. So for us yes it does matter what they say and how they act, regardless of whether or not we want to admit it, believe it or accept it.

oh and I think this discussion is relevant at any time.

As I've said before unfortunately America is in a state where we can't just go out and be ourselves.

AT ALL TIMES we are ambassadors, almost like exhibits for our race.

And I know people are like why should we care what they think. Honestly, we have to because if not our views (in a mostly white government) will continue to be rooted out because we won't be taken seriously.

It sucks, it's not cool and I don't like it but that's the way it is.

no1special -
No one's trying to be "so damn serious." LOL. It's just that the significance of race in pop culture is not a joking matter. Sleep if you want, but every action has a reaction and last night's performance was someone's first exposure to hip hop, blackness, Memphis, etc. Are we prepared to deal with the reactions?

And I believe most of the contributors on this post are avid critics of BET, so your assumption that the response would differ had this been on a predominantly black show is wrong.

I had no problem with their clothes, but their acceptance speech was clearly unclear. That has nothing to do with me wanting them to perform for the white man. It just would've been nice to know what they were saying.

The diversity of black culture needs to be expressed, but it becomes a problem when the mainstream chooses only to celebrate the more negative aspects of the culture.

White Guy -
I'm glad you're wise enough not to generalize when you see blacks behaving badly. However, many of your people aren't that wise.

What people of color think of whites is pretty much irrelevant, because we have very few if any outlets to actualize that opinion negatively. But this isn't about our perception of ya'll anyway. It's about your perception of us. And since you have most of the power when it comes to the mainstream media and pop culture as a whole, this concerns us because your perception affects us. Please believe that one of yours is somewhere brainstorming about the script for the sequel to How High or a comparable film/tv show as we speak.

"Don't see this as a victory for black people, or even hip-hop."

I'm not sure that we do, but trust that blacks and hip hop were affected.

ok folks, white folks do take small snippets of what they see from black people and then draw conclusions. but how on earth did this award show become that important???

white folks have subsidized this image for years--including a significant stretch in film--and are far from unfamiliar with it. i welcome someone to say how this moment changed a damn thing. we are only ambassadors because we have taken on that "responsibility," and that's actually a problem. are black people supposed to continually put on some sort of facade because certain people are morons? fuck that, pimp. i ain't doin it.

three six mafia won an oscar and behaved as they would if no one was watching. they were themselves. and i love it.

it's been said that one reason arthur ashe was driven batty by john mcenroe was that he wished that he had to freedom to go with what he felt like mcenroe did, a privilege not afforded to him because of his blackness. i wonder if those saying triple six didn't properly "represent" black people wish they had that same privilege.

and i'll take that further--those of you who don't think they properly represented black people seem to be implying there's something wrong with the way those guys are. consider that in your heart of hearts and think of what that really means.

i dont think the show is important at all. even hardcore moviegoers don't sweat the oscars. the issue that i choose to address is about the type of decisions that powerful white people make that affect people of color when their perception of those groups is limited.

it's not about a facade with me, "representing" us fairly or projecting an appropriate image of blackness. the diversity of black culture should not be hidden. the problem is that that diversity is not presented in mainstream culture. i've come in contact with too many black kids that know more black drug dealers than college students. there's no balance. it is our responsibility to speak out when what is presented about us only partially or negatively reflects us because it affects us.

I'm not going to write an essay like everyone else, I just have a quick question for y'all.

When will we ever be happy with representation of black people at the Oscars, or just black people in the mainstream period?

We were happy for Halle, for a short second, until we were mad about the role she won for, we were happy for Denzel for a second until we were mad about the role he won for. Both Queen Latifah and Will Smith have been nominated for an Oscar, yet we consider them sell outs because of their career choices and other roles that they have taken. Oprah, one of the few blacks (probably the only) who actually votes for the Oscar nominees, is criticized for not doing her black duty with her show and philanthropy. Also, Hattie McDaniels (the first black, period, to win an Oscar) yet she won for playing a maid in Gone with the Wind. Also, when Cuba Gooding, Jr. won we were embarrassed because he was jumping around and "acting a fool". I'm sorry, but if I ever won an Oscar, I'd probably act the same way. Last but not least, while some of us might like the work that Jamie Foxx did in Ray, and so glad that he won, we are beginning to hate on him because we think that he is capitalizing off of Ray Charles' life.

Maybe black people, especially the intellectuals and the elitists are just hard to please.

"When will we ever be happy with representation of black people at the Oscars, or just black people in the mainstream period?"

We won't. We're too diverse to ever be. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Do people really say Oprah doesn't give to blacks? She gave millions to Morehouse, built a whole neighborhood for Katrina survivors and has built schools in South Africa. If that's not giving, then I don't know what is.

And if intellectuals and elitists - whoever they are - are the only one's challenging the status quo and thus 'hard to please," that's a problem.

I know I'm late and all...but I'll just say this. It is our place to be hyper-critical of the images that represent the Black community because the few depictions that exists and the "typical" images that persist?

At this point in history we can't continue to get hysterical over occurances like this...While three six mafia won the oscar last night, two Black films were number 1 and 6 in the box office this weekend...and the number 2 film's supporting actor was Black.

We have not been set back...yet we expend way too much energy being hysterical over this moment in history without taking a full look at our accomplishments.

While Denzel and Halle's oscar wins are controversial, did their status not propel them to a level in pop culture where they continue to be "Black men and women" and represent every day who they truly are and not a ghetto welfare mother or a corrupt cop with gang affiliations?

And do we not run the risk of being "Cosby-esque" with our knee-jerk reactions to anytime our community's "dirty laundry" is aired because it slights our elitism? Do these people not exist? Are they too not apart of our commununity?

When we say the "black community" has taken an "l" are we looking at three six and saying they are not a part of our community? I know I run the risk of sounding terribly simple, but I think we have to do more than continue to judge these occurances and make sure we support the progression that is taking place with Blacks and Entertainment.

The Image Awards was this past Friday night. Did you watch? Did we not recognize and uplift our own outside of the mainstream? Where is the post for that?

One of the top television shows in the nations is Grey's Anatomy was created by a Black woman, has won Emmys and Image Awards with an overwhelming presence of Black men and women on the show.

Lets look at where we stand. Let's stop bashing those who are still doing something for themselves but happen to fall out of the scope of what we think should be marketed and highlighted about the Black community.

The Black Community is diverse...we still have significant social issues that are reason why we still have pimps and hoes.

And while I understand that from an intellectual point of view the tolerance has run out for the "glorified pimp" - pimps, drug dealers, welfare mothers and fathers, teenage prengancy, infidelity, AIDS/HIV, poor education, imprisonment, crime, ect, ect, are still significant issues in our community.

They wont' stop having a voice just because might have to take an "L."

To T.M. Brown, I don't wanna get too idealistic again (and I don't have much time cause 24 is on) but that is the very foundation of how our people have advanced here in America, by "being hard to please." Imagine if our ancestors would've just accepted stuff that they didn't agree with.

To Elle B, if we are critical of ourselves then the status quo is maintained and nothing is achieved.

To Bomani, we've talked about this via IM and you know how I feel. I'm not saying there is something wrong with how they are, I'm just saying that there aspect of the black conscious will be the one predominately portrayed.

If no one is critical status quo is maintained but hey maybe we should be quiet and leave things the way they are.

Rell, you know I love you but I think you missed my point...


The Black community challenges the staus quo everyday...but we rarely do we praise them.

What's more it seems as though we are becoming too eliist...that some must assimilate to even be accpeted within their own community.

If we make decisions to deal with our own community issues instead of always jumping on the 'less fortunate' we'd do ourselves a service and challenging this so called 'status quo.'

but hopefully we can discuss this at some point, because I think it goes beyond the subject matter at hand.

what percentage of the american population is even education...consider even less of that percentage are minorities...but I think sometimes because we are the intellectuals we become attenuated from others in our community who have not had the same opportunities we've had.

you know one of the greatest failures of the black elite and black intellectuals is that we were so concerned with integrated and assimilation to the majority society and cultural standards that we failed to see the value in our own art. So we alienated ourselves in pursuit of "refinement" and what could have been our key economic and cultural dominance is not our own failure as we watch corporate america and white america exploit "black music."

these brothers did their job - were asked to write a song for a film and completed the task. they are business men and entreprenuers and although we see their win in an "us" versus "them" view, we should be applauding that they exceled at something.

I won't stand for something placing their values and beliefs on me - such as how I am supposed to act and what is "appropriate decorum" so who am I to say the same rule applies.

And you know what, if someone is so simple as to believe that ALL of Black America is three six mafia and we are not diverse, they have to be living under a rock...

And let us address the "disclaimers" in this post, such as, "don't get me wrong, I like three six mafia," ect, ect...why is that we can enjoy their music in private and not in public?

Are we still alienating ourselves?

Whether or not I like three six mafia is beside the point. And because I argue differently that the author or his proponents doesn't mean I don't challenge the status quo. I work in an all white environment, went from intern to full time employee (they created the position for me) and just passed my first annual review with flying colors at 22...obviously I am not a woman who cares to maintain any status quo.

But why are you so desperate to maintain yours?

ps...sorry for the typos.

Call it "hating" if you want, but Three-Six Mafia is pure garbage from any point of view. It’s even bad for Southern rap. But more importantly, I don’t know ANYONE who actually thought this song represented the most EXCELLENT song to accompany a movie this year. NOBODY.

In an event designed to be a showcase for the world, these clowns were an embarrassment. What’s funny is that most people I know wouldn’t aspire for their kids to be seen that way, but yet we’re making excuses for Three-Six Mafia. It’s crazy. How can we pretend to be proud of cock-grabbing and shit-talking in front of the whole world? There is no excuse for this silliness.

What’s even funnier is that ALL of these clowns send their kids to rich private schools, as soon as they get money, so that they can get an education. And there’s NOTHING wrong with that.

What is wrong is that clowns like these sell the world our poverty as a joke (look who’s buying most of their music), while they get their own families out of poverty at the expense of our community’s reputation. More and more as a community, this is how we are presenting ourselves to the world. This mess is disturbing.

And to Rell, why should you be afraid of being labeled a “hater?” Crap is crap. We take this “real” mess too far. Are you “hating” on black folks because you want our people to stand proud in front of the entire planet? If that’s the case, I am proudly the BIGGEST HATER who ever lived. Bring me my crown.

So I ask: WHO WILL COME OUT AND SAY THEY ARE PROUD OF THREE-SIX MAFIA’S PERFORMANCE? Not their “accomplishment” of making it to the Oscars, but how they presented black people to the world.

And White guy is wrong. White people, and many others world-wide, are looking at this and asking themselves: “So, why is it an insult to call one of these fellers a niggra?”

elle b.,

I don't think this is about "elitism." Crap is crap. Almost all of our grandparents would be sick. This crap goes against OUR values. We are giving up our class and culture.

It's not about be assimilated into anyone else's community. It's about being proud of ourselves inside and outside of our own community.

ok obviously there has been a lot thats been said....most of it i don't understand because I said in the post that I like three 6 mafia, hustle& flow, and was happy for them as brothas just having fun making music and reaping the benefits. I said the problem was with the situation and the presentation of the performance. So I really don't see where the elitism argument fits in. If expecting them to be articulate when they speak in a microphone is elitest and a result of me wanting them to assimilate into white culture, then i'll be that. I wasn't aware that being articulate was a white thing. I talk about them instead of the foreign guys cause quite frankly, i don't give a eff about the other guys. like i said in the post, i'm critical of black people/stations/music because i care enough about black culture to hold it to a certain standard.

I'll put it this way, there are some things u wear in your house that you would never wear in public because you know that the people in your house that see you understand you as a person and won't judge you based on your appearance. If you wear it to the mall, people will talk about you and make the wrong assumptions. Songs like "Its Hard Out Here For a Pimp" is that article of clothing that you wear in the house and perform at the VIBE awards or something like that because we can accept the song in the appropriate context. Performing it at the Oscars was wearing your house clothes in public and just simply wasn't a good look.

ok, i got a lil side tracked, but what i was getting at is that they had just finished performing and were probably tired and flustered from that when they gave their incoherent speech. Add to that the excitement of winning an award they probably never expected to win...i can see how words could escape them...and they probably didnt have a prepared speech or forgot all they were gonna say in the excitment....i just think we are so hard on ourselfs sometimes, we cant win for loosing, when in the light someone always find something negative to say.....maybe we dont like how they came off, but they helped knock on that door a lil more paving the way for those who are better versed....

Rell.. after reading your post it made me think.. I had to step away and come back.. and damn if all your points ain't valid.. personally I thought their performance was good.. but I do see your criticism and I don't see it as hating.. u were quite thorough in yo post.. daps son..

it's sad that holding people - whites and blacks - accountable for their thoughts and how they're manifested into actions that affect the masses is considered elitist and intellectual.

this isn't a discussion about class and privilege among blacks. It's about how blacks are affected as a whole when the powers that be don't consider the diversity of blackness in their decision making. Think about it the next time you say "they're not any/enough good black shows on tv" or "they play the same songs/videos all the time" and "why are all the books in the african-american interests section about some woman trying to get her groove back" or "why are most of the magazines directed at men softcore porn and the ones for women always about braids?" and if you've never said any of these things, believe that many others have, so it's still a problem.

Well I'm hype about South African film Tsotsi winning the Best Foreign Film Oscar. This is the South African film industry's first Oscar!

Tsotsi is about the transformation a young gang leader in a Johannesburg township. He was an AIDS orphan, grew up on the streets in poverty, and was was involved in violent crimes.

One day he hijacked a car and later found a baby in the back seat. He raised the baby himself, turned away from gang violence and learned to be the father he never had.

Let me start by saying I "hate" on southern music, hell I "hate" on all music, I hate on bafoonery, and I also support the claim that black actors are more appreciated in stereotypical and negative roles from Haddie McDowell to Morgan Freeman, I researched and made this a speech in college. But i have to disagree with you here Rell. The movie was very good in my opinion and gave me an appreciation of Southern music-- not a like of Southern music-- just an understanding. It made me compare it to hip hop as we back East see it and at the time it was the CNN of the ghetto. The movie made me aware of Southern "culture" and the sound was so applicable it could not be ignored as best song for a movie this year. Not that the song is good at all-- it embodies that movie moreso than any song has in years. Straight up Menace (MC EIHT, Menace to Society) was 10 times better a song and it spoke the movie-- but it wasn't as influential as this song. I think the Academy is really appreciating the art, I think this is a boundary broken for urban music and art.

I have nothing intellectual to add here.

Let me keep it real. That was a complete embarrassment to African Americans and Black Culture as a whole. There were NO redeeming qualities in that performance or that song.

Complete garbage.

I rest my case. Some of you are so self-conscious, acting like YOU WON THE AWARD. YOU DIDN'T WIN THIS AWARD. BLACK PEOPLE AS A WHOLE DIDN'T WIN THIS AWARD - THREE 6 MAFIA WON THE OSCAR. You aren't responsible for their image, and they aren't responsible for your image.

Whether or not you appreciate the song, the group, or Hustle & Flow the movie, this was not your award, so don't feel bad about how this makes YOU LOOK.

I can't think of anyone I know, white or black, who would see the Oscars and act like all black people are the same as Three 6 Mafia. Simply unbelievable!

white guy,

I hate to sound simplistic and do this but really some things, as a member of the majority, you're unable to comprehend because of your majority status.

I know that annoys you to know end, but it's the truth.

Tweezie: "nobody cringed when the French guys got up and spoke holding the stuffed penguins ..."

Oh, yes, we did cringe.

No1Special: "basically you're saying smile real good and speak real well for massah now."

I usually wear jeans and a t-shirt and put my hair in a ponytail and I curse like a sailor. But if someone invites me to their wedding, I put on a nice outfit and try and act acceptably. It's not putting on airs, it's dignifying the award that they're receiving.

White Guy--
They didn't represent black people to you or to me, but they did represent black people to a bunch of middle America white people who forgot the dignified Morgan Freeman and respectful Samuel L. Jackson the moment "Hard Out There for a Pimp" was announced. And then, instead of saying something like "This songs is really about issues of poverty and power and we'd like to thank..." they just started mumbling junk about random people, places, things, that they liked. It was like a freaking madlib. So people who would have otherwised come away from the show thinking "Oh, I like that nice Don Cheadle guy...He's an amazing actor" came away thinking "What a trashy spectacle those rappers were!"

Maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it does. But just because you're enlightened, don't project that on to the rest of white (or black) Americans.

Hey, I think this post is really good! The comments it has evoked are equally impressive. I am linking it to a post of mine and figured I should let you know. It's the Pasteurized America post. Check it out!